Does religion really do evil?

[Chris Worfolk]

I'm going to pose quite a few open questions on here. Not because I genuinely struggling with them but many of them because at the moment I am struggling to articulate my arguments for such questions.

For example, today we were sat round and I was discussing with Jewish Dan whether religion actually caused evil or whether it was just a political tool and people would do it anyway so there is no point removing religion.

My argument was that in order to accept that you have to accept that such people don't actually believe in their religion (which I believe they do). But he disagreed that they did actually believe that.

The argument covered several other points, but anyway, add your opinions, thoughts, debate points...

[Ellis Pugh]

Its a difficult one, but my line of argument runs something like this:

Accepting/Becoming part of a religion makes you part of a defined group. This means you have a group who are 'close' and a group who are 'other' (or heathen, barbarian, non-believer, whichever term you decide to use). Subsequently you justify violence and discrimination on the grounds of difference. An exclusion from the tribe syndrome.

This naturally ignores a more sinister aspect of religion, where its holy texts/rules actively call for ill treatment of others. Many groups of people have been discriminated against because religous people have thought they were being instructed by their religion to do so. Jewish people, women and homosexuals are the more obvious examples within the Christian faith.

I'm sure its more complex than that, and that there are more reasons, but these two seem to prove it for me. Religion might not actively 'do' evil, but it certainly creates a circumstance wherein that is justified.

[SolentSecularists]

Hold on...

Yes, Yes it does.

Have you read Ayaan Hirsi Ali's book Infidel where she talks about having her genitals sewn up at the age of five... something that happens to most Muslim girls including in this country! Like 2 Million girls a year have that done to them... that's child abuse...

Or the fact that the bible tells its readers to stone to death anyone who worships a different god including your neighbour or your children...

I don't like the name barbarian that sounds vile, who calls us that? I've never heard it before.

I like the fact that bringing atheists together are like herding cats.

[Ellis Pugh]

Perhaps I didn't make myself clear enough. My view on religion is the same as that of Steven Weinberg; 'With or without religion good people will do good, and evil people will do evil, but for good people to do evil, that takes religion'.

The main body of my response was trying to express how religion leads people to do evil, than specifically answer whether or not people do evil in the name of faith (I should expect that is obvious, your example is a good, but not the only one).

As for the herding cats similie, I think thats the best bit about atheism- open minded debate defines the standpoint.

[StuartR]

I'm tempted to add the Christopher Hitchens argument where he says 'First, give me an example of a good action performed by a religious person which an atheist could not perform'. Nobody can give an answer (I've heard 'prayer', but I just looked at the person in complete disgust until they backed down...). 'Now, give an example of an evil action performed by a religious person which an atheist would not perform', and everbody can give plenty of examples. Here's one just from today. (http://www.madison.com/tct/news/stories/278693)

But I'd be failing in my job as a psychologist (psychology student anyway!) if I thought it was only religion that caused people to do bad things. That Steven Weinberg quote? Well, it's true, but it's misleading as religion isn't the only thing! I'll roll out the old (though no less scary for its familiarity) psychology example of the Milgram experiments (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_experiment). Authority is another thing that makes good people do bad things, and there are plenty others.

So I'll answer the question posed in this thread by saying: yes, of course it does. I can't think of a single conflict in human history that wouldn't have been better off without religious involvement, for one thing! But we have to be careful and address all forms of 'evil' before we go on about religion too much. And of course, lest we forget, religion can do some good stuff as well! Just, er, not very often (I won't relate the tale of our friend Jonah here (nor will I ever on the internet!), but my fellow Edinburghers will understand).

More important, in my opinion, is the fact that religion is such a complete failure scientifically, philosophically, and logically. Nothing claimed by religions can be shown to be true, and I just think it's kind of sad that so many people are (more than!) satisfied by non-explanations like the ones religion provides. Though I guess you could say that this is a kind of evil too.

[Ellis Pugh]

I love that Hitchens paradox, it really works. (I too have had a response of 'loving god'- but a raised eyebrow was enough to quell that line of argument)

I would also like to defend the Weinburg quotation, but I don't have the space here- I think it deserves a different thread- as I believe the other causes of evil like authority which you mentioned, actually are aspects of religion or rather a religious way of thinking.

[StuartR]

Er...

Well, let's say I'll be interested to read your full argument.

[Jenna]

Erm guys....do you actually believe in 'evil'??? Isn't this a blatantly Christian kind of concept?
Personally, I think the concept is really unhelpful in talking about human nature and human actions.

[Chris Worfolk]

Well I think the term is used as a short hand for "considered bad in the current zeitgeist" rather than in Christian theological terms.

[StuartR]

Exactly, Chris. I would assume that most people here don't believe in 'evil' as anything concrete, but look on it as a description of things that happen and that people do.

I still await a response about the Weinberg quote from Ellis!

[Rogerrp]

Stuart,

I used to fully agree with the Weinberg quote until you and I met Jonah, the psychopath, who was behaving normally thanks to his faith. As well as lobotomy, chemical castration and other behavioural manipulation through the use of drugs, numbing one down with religion seems to work in some cases. Definitely not the best option, and something that should not be used in jails and supported by any state.
Main point being, there are some horrible people that do less bad because of religion. Sad as this is. I accept that it may even be counterproductive and in the long run some of them burst and do quite a lot of damage, but it is not factually correct to say that religion has not helped some bad people do good, for the bad reason, but good nevertheless. I feel that we often underestimate the number of psychopaths and perturbed people that we meet at inter-faith gatherings. ;)
Usually, when facing the "religion helped me be a better person therefore religion is good" argument, I sincerely suggest to them that lobotomies and antidepressants could also have worked. :) And of course, the fact that something helps doesn't make it more true (homeopathy,...). But this is another issue.
See you in one hour.
R

[StuartR]

Oh, poor Jonah. I feel so sorry for him, y'know...

[AlexMagd]

I absolutely agree with SolentSecularists (in lieu of a real name) that there are many things that are common practice within religion that are 'evil' in terms of being morally unacceptable in my own opinion. Female genital mutilation is the example given and it would be hard to find one more appalling, but I would add male genital mutilation as well. It constantly surprises me that we don't hear regular criticism of circumsicion for religious reasons; regardless of the arguments for and against it in later life, it's taken as read that it's acceptable to mutilate children according to the faith of their parents.

People will act badly and selfishly regardless of a moral diktat - be it religious or humanist - but on top of that religion purposely encourages 'evil' acts. People can be bad enough without encouragement to persecute gays and subjugate women. Religions that teach that they are the one true faith by definition preach intolerance, and intolerance of that kind inevitably leads to violence.

[Rogerrp]

There is an article in the latest issue of Free Inquiry magazine concerning how religions affect conscience.
Main point: Nazis murdered people, Inquisition murdered people. Nazis try to hide it and feel bad about it (still no excuse) but Terrorists, Inquisitors, ... not only do evil but find in religion a reason to feel proud for their deeds. Ultimate dangerous virus of the mind!
:mad: